Forum:Who is the strongest non-fused hero in the Buu Saga?/Which of the Buu forms is the strongest?

Forums: Index → Kame House → Who is the strongest non-fused hero in the Buu Saga?/Which of the Buu forms is the strongest?

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Now here is a subject that I’ve been dying to bring up for a long time. I wanted to mention this on YouTube, but people argue too much instead of having a civilized discussion. So this is all about the power spectrum in the Buu Saga. This is going to be pretty lengthy, but I have to put in all the facts in order to back up my claims. So be patient and take time to read it because it really is worth it.

Many people argue who is the strongest hero in this saga Goku(SS3) or Gohan(Mystic)/ what is the strongest form of Majin Buu-Kid Buu or Super Buu(Gohan, Piccolo, Goten, Trunks). Now I’m going to present my thoughts on the issue using facts and quotations from the anime. I’m going by the heroes strengths from the beginning of the saga to when Kid Buu is killed, not including the 10 years after (Or any movies that come in in-between).

These two lists are my own personal opinion! If anyone else wants to comment or think something may be wrong please let me know before throwing your hands up and saying that “This guy is stupid, there’s no way this guy is stronger than him!”

List of heroes from strongest to weakest: (Just the Saiyans because they are the ones who did the fighting! I’m not stating Vegito because obviously he is the strongest fighter in all of DBZ!) Mystic Gohan (the strongest not fused warrior) SS3 Goku SS3 Gotenks SS2 Vegeta (or Majin)/SS2 Goku SS Trunks/SS Goten (After leaving the Time Chamber)

List of Buu's strongest to weakest: (Not including the Buu after absorbing the South Kai) Super Buu (Gohan/Piccolo/Trunks/Goten) Super Buu (Piccolo/Gotenks) Super Buu (Piccolo/Goten/Trunks) Super Buu Fat Buu(Before the split into Evil Buu and Mr. Buu) Kid Buu Evil Buu (The gray skinny one) Mr. Buu (The fat Buu after the split)

Well there you have it my thoughts on the “who’s who” when it comes to power. I will later mention who I think is the strongest of all of them all (not counting Vegito!). Starting with the heroes, Gohan is more powerful than a SS3 Goku hands down. I always believed Goku in this form was the strongest in the universe. Now that I’m older, I can better understand the show and take apart every battle and separate the stronger fighters from the weaker ones. Instead of me going, “Goku is the strongest because he is the main character in the show!” without really taking time to consider his weaknesses. After SS3 Goku fought Fat Buu, he mentioned that he could in fact kill him. I believe this to be a fact. Later, he said the same thing to Vegeta about him being able to kill Kid Buu. When he returned to Earth to fuse with Gohan he had to go toe-to-toe with Gotenks Buu, and wasn’t doing too great. Now here is where it gets tricky to setup Goku’s strength at this level. In each fight as a SS3 he never generated the form’s true power. In every fight he has held back. Against Fat Buu, he wanted the boys to take a shot at saving the world. Up against Gotenks Buu, he was only trying to stall for time in order for Gohan to find the Potara Earring. Finally, he held back with Kid Buu in order for Vegeta to have a shot at the monster. Another thing to mention is the form’s setbacks. In his Other World body he could generate far more power than his living body. Goku mentioned this several times after his first transformation to Piccolo, and again to Vegeta when he changed back to normal on the Kai Planet after Vegeta tried to buy him some time to power up. So really he was at his best against Fat Buu since he was dead. After freeing the others from Buu’s head he said these famous words to Vegeta. “If we go out there right now he’s going to kill us!” Many people are saying this is referring to them in their normal forms. I think that if they had escaped they could have quickly powered up to their maximums. This is demonstrated when Gotenks Buu charged into Goku, and he went SS3 in the blink of an eye. So Goku states himself basically that his SS3 form would not have been enough to take down Super Buu (Even with SS2 Vegeta’s help). Please dismiss the thought form of Buu that Goku and Vegeta took down because in Buu’s mind realty was not in play. Gohan is stronger since his Mystic form didn’t seem to drain his energy like a SS3 does, and he easily swatted around Super Buu like a fly. He fell short when he was up against Gotenks Buu. If one looks closely at the beginning of their fight the two seem to be equal in power. It is only after Buu begins to taunt Gohan, does he take complete control of the battle. Gohan’s mind seemed to be his only weakness in his Mystic Form.

I put SS3 Gotenks third, simply because Super Buu states that he was only toying around with the boys until Gohan arrived. Like Kid Buu vs. SS3 Goku he willing let himself get blasted or blown up for fun. Now again Buu’s thoughts forms shouldn’t count because they never got tired or damaged from battle. SS2 Vegeta(or he could have been SS like Goku was against Mystic Gohan) was able to get the better of Piccolo(Super Namek) and SS3 Gotenks at the same time. Goku had a bit more experience as a SS3, even though he gave the boys credit when he spoke to Supreme Kai. He stateed; “When I ascended to a level 3 let me tell you it’s not the easiest thing to control, but those two are acting like they’ve been training for years!” Then Supreme Kai later says, “So is Gotenks stronger than you?” Goku-“Well I can do it to. But these boys, wow, they’ve reached a level that it took me my whole life to achieve!” So it can be said that Goku is indeed stronger than Gotenks. Given the better control Goku has, and the fact the SS3 lowers the time the Gotenks can stay fused plus he would probably change back to normal form quicker than Goku would.

SS2 Goku and Vegeta are even just look at the Majin Vegeta/SS2 Goku fight. This is just self-explanatorily. Dismiss Goku’s ability to possibly call upon just a bit of SS3 power to take Vegeta down (Or if he could possibly use the Kaio-Ken as a SS2). If you want to get technical Majin Vegeta was at his absolute full power. This is because of Babidi’s magic unlocking a fighter’s hidden abilities. Just think of it as the Elder Kai’s power ritual in a quicker time, but you have to sell your soul instead of standing and sitting still for an extended period of time! When he was SS2 against Kid Buu it is unknown if this was Vegeta’s full power this is something that has to be decided among fans for themselves.

Trunks was obliviously more powerful than Goten before the Time Chamber. This is most likely due to him having Vegeta as a teacher. His training was more intense than Goten’s ( fighting against an old woman or dodging flying rocks/sparring with his kind hearted brother). At the tournament, Trunks was more powerful, but Goten had him at the end when he used his head. Trunks got the upper hand and won only when he used deception, trickery, and going against his own rules. After, the Time Chamber it is up for discussion over which one is the most powerful. Goten took the training way more seriously because Buu had just killed his mother. So after they exited, it is unknown which of them was the strongest. It could be that Goten finally caught up to Trunks’ strength and they became equals.

Now we move on to the strengths of the Buus. I put Mr. Buu at the end because he was easily defeated by Evil and Kid Buu. This is mostly because he lost most of his powers to the Evil Buu after the split. He was the only Buu seen to actually become weaker and lose power (only if you do not count Gohan Buu’s regeneration powers beginning to fail after begin blown up multiple times by Vegito). Evil Buu is ahead of him because he beat the tar out of Mr. Buu. It is confusing because we really do not get to see just how powerful this form is, he is weaker than Super Buu because he merged with Mr. Buu to create him. He is weaker than Fat Buu, because he was with Mr. Buu before the two split. However, since he got more power during the split than Mr. Buu he could have been stronger than Kid Buu. Now I know a lot of people are going to have problems with me putting Kid Buu after Super Buu, but especially after Fat Buu! I’m basing this off of the two’s fight against SS3 Goku and nobody else. Fat Buu wasn’t able to inflict or damage SS3 Goku at all like Kid Buu managed to do. Goku was not fighting at his maximum potential, and he was more powerful than he was against Kid Buu because he was still dead. Fat Buu is stronger than Kid Buu because it is mentioned by many of the Z-Fighters, Kibito and the Supreme Kai that Fat Buu’s power simply continued to grow and grow! This especially occurs when he is fighting against more powerful or simply strong fighters, in some cases especially when he gets angry. Also as I mentioned before, Goku said that he could kill Kid Buu alone. This is when he is living so his SS3 powers were not as strong as they were against Fat Buu. I will mention that Kid Buu is the most DANGEROUS Buu! Super Buu is next, like I said earlier he was an Evil/Mr. Buu put together, and this is like a more potent Fat Buu. From there the fighters he absorbed made him more powerful. The list I made mentions the absorbed so that’s says it all.

Now out of all of the people on my list the strongest is Buu(Gohan/Trunks/Piccolo/Goten). He is the strongest villain in DBZ as well. As I mentioned earlier, Vegito is the best of the best hands down. He made Gohan Buu look like Hercule up against a Super Saiyan!

So there you have it my list of the strongest. If there are any chances or comments please list them I am open to suggestions. I’m also eager to hear the opinions of other fans.

Buu

yes yes i agree completely..but i wanna talk about super buu(piccolo/goten/trunks) didnt goku state that after the fusion broke that super buu was mostly piccolo? rendering him weaker then Kid Buu cause it was stated by kabito kai that when super buu absorbed supreme Kai's leader (im not gonna attempt to spell it lol) he said that it made buu weaker hencing that even thou super buu can absoorb abilities that doesnt change the fact that piccolo made him weaker and even more so with goten and trunks in his body but thats just me. Super Buu was the smartest villian ever even thou he didnt look it during his fights with gotenks. He knew Gohan was coming, He knew if he fought Gohan man to man with just gotenks in him it would be even, and he knew Piccolo's knowledge would tip the scale in buu's favor. Mystic Gohan is in fact without question the strongest however he lost a critical aspect of his character his unbelieveble rage a normal fighter would be blinded but Gohan became stronger because of it and i think after seeing his best friends and brother get absorbed by buu wouldve made him unleash more power but eh..And shame on Gotenks what type of fighter screams out there greatest weakless to a dangerous pink killing machine knowing that he just wipped out the whole planet and isnt going down easily, SSJ 2 and SSJ 3 was never fully explored in the series like ssj 1 was cause whos to say that there wasnt a ultra ssj 2 or 3 no one would ever fully know, i also agree with u about goku vs kid buu i believe the way goku handled himself as ssj 2 that he shouldnt've had any reason to go ssj 3 prompting that Goku fully realizes the ssj 2 form thats why he can achieve ssj 3 but he hasnt mastered it thats is probably why he cant gather the energy he needs at times..lastly i thik what confuses people must about Kid buu vs Super buu is the fact that Kid buu is relentless he doesnt stop to smell the roses or give u a speech in kid buu talk, he'll blast u, your planet and himself then find ur ghost in other world and kill it so u wont come back lol he was gonna do it to krillin

Wow thanks for the response, (this is going to be a long post, but like the first one I promise that it is worth the time if you read it carefully)

First on the subject of Super Buu (Piccolo/Goten/Trunks), I think that Buu absorbing the Z-Fighters did not decrease his powers at all. When it came to the Kais he absorbed, I really believe that his power went down. The South Supreme Kai did not seem to be such a power decrease in my opinion (the Kai that resulted in Kid Buu becoming the bulky Super Buu), by the way he looked and was fighting it seemed that he was stronger than ever. Of course the bulky muscles may have slowed him down like Ultra SS, but since he did not receive a lot of screen time we can’t exactly figure out his power. That is why I excluded him from my list. When he absorbed Daikaioh (don’t know if it’s spelled right, but I mean the ruler of the 4 original Kais) he became Fat Buu, and that lead to him having a huge decrease in power. So the influence from the ruler of the Supreme Kais was much more powerful than the South Supreme Kai alone. When Kibito Kai mentions that his power went down, I think that he is referring to his destructive nature and such. Remember when he healed that blind boy and became friends with him? Then after flying off after their encounter, he flew blast a city and manically blew it up. Do you remember the look on his face? This was the evil and destructive force that was welling up inside of him. I think that this was a foreshadowing of the Evil Buu that was soon to emerge. I think that these uncontrollable fits of rage show that Fat Buu was struggling on the inside. It was a conflicting battle between the Kid Buu inside of him (the destructive nature) and the Daikaioh (the kind-hearted non-violent essence inside of him).

As for your earlier statement on Goku’s remark; “Now he’s mostly Piccolo!” I think that was referring to the fact that Gotenks had de-fused, and Piccolo was the dominant absorbed being in Buu’s body. When he was Super Buu (Gotenks/Piccolo), Gotenks was the dominant being meaning that Buu was mostly Gotenks. This is evident by the Fusion vest and the long tentacle that is based off of the long hair of a SS3. Then after the fusion dissolved he gained Piccolo’s cape meaning that Piccolo was the dominant being in Buu’s body. If Goten or Trunks was stronger than Piccolo, Buu would have been wearing one of their outfits. I honestly do not think that those three or Gohan lowered Buu’s power in the least. We should know that Super Buu (Piccolo/Goten/Trunks) was stronger than Super Buu himself. Since I listed him before Kid Buu, after absorbing anyone I think that he was stronger that Kid Buu hands down. However, he was not strong enough to beat Mystic Gohan as Super Buu (Piccolo/Trunks/Goten). The only thing that I noticed was Buu’s increase in patience after absorbing the Z-Fighters instead of a decrease in power. Examples; after absorbing Gohan he allowed Goku to the count of 5 so he could find someone to fuse with, I think this is likely because of his own overconfidence or Gohan’s, Goten’s, or Trunks’ interest in fighting strong opponents. Remember that Trunks wanted to stall the fight in the Time Chamber because he did not want to kill Super Buu too quickly as a SS3 Gotenks. Then Goten agreed with the plan to let their opponent get confused before finishing them off. Back at the Cell Games, after becoming a SS2 Gohan toyed with Cell leading to him trying to blow up the Earth. This attitude became apparent after becoming Mystic, even though he had second thoughts about Gotenks battling Super Buu instead of letting himself (Gohan) finish the job. So these different traits in attitudes helped to make Super Buu more prone to toying with his opponents rather than killing quickly like Kid Buu would.

Going back to Super Buu, he realized that not waiting for the Fusion to split and then be able to reform would lead to his demise. So he showed this patience for the first time as Super Buu.

Mentioning Gotenks’ cockiness, he was just a complete moron nothing more to say on the subject… If he had listened to Piccolo in the first place, or Trunks listened to Goten then they may have killed Buu. I think that Trunks was the one in control of the Fusion when the two fought Super Buu. Think about it Goten could not remember his line when Buu came into the chamber, and Trunks was enraged when Buu punched him in the face when they were about to fuse. So it makes since that Goten would take a backseat and let Trunks take control of the Fusion. When he taunted Buu dealing with the Fusion about to split and the hour it would take to do it again, I believe that this was mostly Trunks doing the talking (dismiss that fact that he speaks with Goten and Trunks’ voices blended together). I mean remember when the two were practicing the Fusion; Goten had trouble catching on as fast as Trunks. I think that Trunks was the one to remember the Fusion rules better than Goten. After Gohan showed up, Goten wanted to fuse, but Trunks was the one to mention that the hour was not yet completed. Goten was the one who was right in the Time Chamber, if they started off as SS3 then I really believe that they could have killed Super Buu even if he was just stalling for Gohan to come. Only if they did not goof off as Goten suggested, and fought at full power from the beginning.

On the SS2 Goku vs Kid Buu subject, I think that he was just testing out Buu’s strength at that level. Have you ever read anything like that before? I really believe that Kid Buu and Goku were just having fun with each other by battling. Goku then stated; “He’s more powerful than before you speed your power…” I think that he is referring to his battles with Fat Buu as a SS3, Gotenks Buu as a SS3, but not the bout as Vegito. I am only mentioning Goku’s battles with Buu by himself. Then when he mentions that Kid Buu is the strongest I think that this is because Kid Buu was a manic and did not fool around as much as his previous forms in combat, but was making a slight exception when it came to fighting SS2 Goku. I am also not implying that Kid Buu is the strongest, but like I said before he is the most reckless and dangerous. I really think that Goku was the only one to utilize the full potential of a SS2, like you mentioned he was the only one to go SS3. Not counting Gotenks because he is a fused being and Goku showed Goten and Trunks how to do it (how to go SS2 as well as SS3). Then when the two fused they had two minds put together, and could go SS3 quicker not to mention their ability to go SS quicker than anyone due to their genes in my opinion. Neither of them alone went SS3 so I really put Goku on top of the SS2 spectrum. Gohan could have been the first to explore the true potential of SS2, but we all know his 7 yr. fighting break to study decreased his power as a SS2 severely and Vegeta pointed it out at the tournament. I think that Goten and Trunks as Gotenks probably did go SS2 in the Time Chamber. Since the anime did not show the lightning aura in many fights, it caused confusion as to when the SS2 form was used in battle. After Gotenks went SS against Buu in the Time Chamber he thought to himself; “Now to turn it up a notch!” I actually think he was referring to taking his power up to a SS2. However, as I mentioned before the lack of lightning in his aura leaves this decision up to the fans. Vegeta went against Kid Buu as a SS2 (at least I think so) when he was buying time for Goku to charge up his SS3 powers to their maximum. Kid Buu beat the crap out of him. He did not do this with Goku, and I think this further proves my point that SS2 Goku and Kid Buu were just testing their strengths on one another. Like I mentioned in my first post, SS2 Goku and Vegeta were more or less equal when it came to power.

When you mentioned that SS2 could have multiple forms like SS could go up to Ascended SS or Ultra SS, I think that Goku ignored them even if he did reach them in Other World. Remember in the Time Chamber that he ignored the Ascended and Ultra forms due to the power setbacks. He reached the two levels in the Chamber, and told Gohan about the disadvantages in either of these forms. I believe that Goku was training to reach a Full Power SS2, like he did the Full Power SS in the Cell Saga. Then after gaining better control over the form he was able to go SS3. I really think this is a plausible reason as to how he ascended to SS3. I also agree that SS3 was never fully explored in power. Once again, as I mentioned in my first post each time SS3 Goku was in a fight he held back for some reason. Except in GT, went he used it for the first time as a kid against 1st form Baby Vegeta, he went back to normal due to his body not being used to the transformation as a kid. Then their second battle on Planet Tuffle, he was at full power as a kid SS3, but Baby Vegeta was just too strong. Even though he was at full power in that fight, he was still a kid and not an adult so the true power of the transformation has yet to be revealed. I’m going to create a post called: Could Adult SS3 Goku defeat Baby Vegeta in DBGT? I am going to post it sometime today, and I think that you should read it as it relates to this subject. For all we know Goku may have mastered the transformation during the 10 years between Kid Buu’s death and Goku’s journey with Uub. Then another 10 years went by from the end of Z to the start of GT. Even though I think that he never used his SS forms on Uub given the fact that Uub could barely hold his own or he was equal to Goku in his normal form. Goku may have found some time to practice the transformation.

So there you have it if you have any more comments or questions to this subject I will be happy to discuss them. Oh yeah, I have been working on my user page if you want to check it out feel free and if you have any questions of the things on there we can discuss them as well.Vegetaisthebest 14:52, December 10, 2009 (UTC)

mmhmm mmhmm true...on to kid buu vs ssj 2 goku this is one of my favorite fights the art design for that ep was amazing as for them testing there powers out makes good sense, kinda funny though that goku had it easy but vegeta got the stuffin beat out of him lol..villians must hate him..anyways i guess Goku is the person u need to test yourself against even if ur millions of years old..I have been wondering something do u think during the cell games Goku was aware that he could become ssj 2 but allowed gohan to do it first cause remember Goku doesnt want to be the hero all the time and he said in his fight against buu that he always wanted to give someone else a chance to be the hero (not really what he said but thats basically it) so this is what leads me to believe that goku had knowledge of the form...remember that goku hid ssj3 from majin vegeta and goku knows how to hide his energy with ease...so what do u think

That was a valid point that you just brought up. During the flashback after Gohan countered Cell’s Kamehameha, Goku remembered how Gohan made the ascension to SS2. I think that Goku did not know how to make the ascension to the next level like Gohan did. However, before Gohan made the transformation remember back to when he and Goku were training. Go back to when the two would train and Goku would have to give Gohan a piggy-back ride to the bed for him to rest. Then after apologizing to Goku for being so weak he would quickly get some rest as suggested by Goku. He would then look down at Gohan and smile. To me this is either him being a father that is proud of his son for trying, or that Gohan’s hidden powers may have been releasing in various bursts during the training. Most of the time when his powers come out, he quickly passes out after they fade away. This is another theory of to how Goku may have realized Gohan’s true strength. When they first went into the room Goku told Gohan to get stronger than him. So his joy at seeing his son could have been the day-to-day progress that he was making or the hidden powers that were inside him were coming to the surface. Remember when he first went SS2, Gohan quickly passes out after the transformation and did not remember that he could go SS2.

On the matter of SS3 Goku hiding himself from Majin Vegeta, I do not think that relates to the Cell Saga. However, you know that many fans complain that the artists fail to add in the SS2 aura on a regular format (adding the lighting to a Saiyan’s aura) and this confuses fans on whether or not a fighter actually went SS2. Examples; Gohan vs. Dabura, Vegeta vs. Kid Buu, whether or not Gotenks went SS2, and my favorite is the one I’m going to use to answer your question Goku vs. Pikkon. During the end of the episode Final Round, both fighters stop holding back on each other as Pikkon removes his robes. Then Goku goes SS, but wait! You notice when the narrator comes in and the final scene is the two fighters in a fighting stance, you see lighting coming from Goku’s SS aura! Could this mean Goku is in fact a SS2? Then in the next episode those sparks disappear! This really makes it confusing as to know whether or not he was SS2. The other way of looking at it is this; Goku was on par with Pikkon who was able to easily defeat Super Perfect Cell. This villain was only able to be subdued by a SS2 Gohan, so what do you think about that? After Goku beat the 4 dead Ginyu’s, Cell charged in to attack him. Goku took a fighting stance, and I think that he was very aware that he had no chance of winning. Unless of course he could utilize SS2 power in his normal form, and he did his SS powers to beat the Ginyus. I think he did this to hide his SS powers from Pikkon. So I think that you may be correct as he can hide his power from the other Z-Fighters. Another point of evidence to your theory is after Piccolo made Goku realizes that Gohan could not beat Cell. He did not love fighting as much as his father, and in that death lock Cell had him in Goku was about to save him. He asked for a Senzu, and was about to save Gohan. He may have been able to go SS2, and the only reason I could see him going in there is if he knew that he could win. Given the fact that he did not train before going to the Grand Kai’s planet, he could have been able to go SS2 the whole time. Like you said he could have hidden it from Gohan the whole time. This is evident as to Gohan always being confused as how Goku could be so confident about beating Cell.

Since the Other World Tournament is considered non-canon by most fans; Pikkon, Super Kaio-Ken, and the other dead fighters are under speculation as to whether or not they fit into the series. So if you believe that they do my second paragraph is with your theory. If you do believe it then SS3 Goku hiding himself from Majin Vegeta in fact does go along with the evidence in the Cell Saga.

If not then the first paragraph goes along with that train of thought. I hope it doesn’t sound like I’m contradicting myself, but canon and non-canon present different opinions on the series.Vegetaisthebest 17:27, December 11, 2009 (UTC)

Wow, I definitely agree with you on almost everything you said on the first post. Now, for the thing I don't agree: When Goku fought against Majin Vegeta, many people say that Goku was holding back. But here's my perspective: If Goku went Super Saiyan 3 against Majin Vegeta, it would drastically reduce Goku's one-day license on Earth, which was even stated by Goku himself. So, in Goku's perspective, I believe that he was keeping Super Saiyan 3 to use only when necessary and in a drastic situation, like the one when he bought time for Trunks to get the Dragon Radar. So, yes, you can say that Goku was holding back his power, but wasn't holding back in the "middle-term" perspective. Vegeta - San Talk Contrib 18:23, December 11, 2009 (UTC)

Goku holding back

Technically, he was holding back because SS3 was in fact his full power. He was battling Majin Vegeta as a SS2 so he was holding back. I do agree and know for a fact about the whole situation involving him using SS3 and draining his remaining time on Earth. So he was going by the rules of Other World when it came to him fighting. Well what I think could improve the show doesn’t matter because they are mere what-if’s. I think that Goku could have dropped off Trunks first, went to face Buu and Babidi, then after their fight pick up Trunks when he got the radar. It would have saved them a whole lot of time. His Instant Transmission had so many advantages that could have made things a lot easier than they had to be. Not to backslide, but remember when Vegeta went to face Cell after leaving the Time Chamber? Goku offered to take him to Cell with the IT (Instant Transmission), Vegeta and Trunks could have been there in a second or two. This would have saved the lives of all of the people that he killed on the islands to flush out #18. Then after being wished back to live wouldn’t they have been sent back into the ocean? Cell destroyed all of the island homes so when revived the people would be stranded in ocean. Well since they are just mere people the writers chose not to elaborate on that subject.Vegetaisthebest 19:51, December 11, 2009 (UTC)

lol they where brought back just to drown to death LiberatorReborn 20:26, December 11, 2009 (UTC)

Yeah that’s the way it would happen. On another subject, the wish they made only revived Cell’s victims. Yamcha was the one to blurt out the wish to the newly revived Shenron that could now grant two wishes. Now my other issue is about the people that were killed by the other Androids and Vegeta. #19 and #20 killed a lot of people on the island 9 miles southwest of South City (Sansbo Island I believe), the two guys that saw Yajoribe’s sky car blow up were killed by #19, the purple-haired woman that screamed when the old man was being strangled and this attracted Yamcha’s attention, the old man that #20 strangled, the guy that drove the big rig that slammed into the gas station when he saw #19 and #20 with him absorbing Yamcha’s energy, and all of the people that were killed when #20 used eyes beams to destroy over half of the island. Then when #18 and SS Vegeta were battling it out on the highway, Vegeta punched his hands though one car, and when he took off it crashed into a wall, so the driver may have been killed. The guy’s car that #18 was slammed into ran off of the street. Then he gets mad when #18 jumps on another car, and he powers up his aura. When he flies off to catch #18; the car that was about to crash into him exploded. Finally, his Big Bang Attack blew up the truck that was delivering staples (that was one of my favorite scenes by the way! And I find it funny that they add that truck in the BT series in the Mountain Road battlefield) and I think that the driver was obviously destroyed in the blast. So what about all of those poor people huh? They just let them stay in Other World because of Yamcha’s stupid actions. Then in the Kid Buu Saga, Buu destroyed numerous plants in his search for Goku and Vegeta. They do not wish those people or planets back into existence with the Namek Dragonballs. Then again this could have prevented potential enemies in the future, but they were still innocent lives on those planets that were obviously strong. Old Kai; “I think he’s searching for you two, seeking out powers that are stronger than average and going there to take a look.” So those people could have contributed to the Super Spirit Bomb in order to beat Kid Buu. I think that King Kai would have arranged it so those planets could hear Vegeta talking. I don’t think that the people in the city Nappa killed when he and Vegeta first arrived were revived as well because he and Vegeta no longer pledged their allegiances to Frieza. He also destroyed one of the TV helicopters, the entire nearby television team that was on the scene, a military unit, and he stopped by to destroy another city as well. They were not revived by the Earth Dragonballs because Mr. Popo wished for victims of Frieza and his men to be revived. So there you have my thoughts on the innocent lives that were not revived by the Dragonballs.Vegetaisthebest 21:04, December 11, 2009 (UTC)

Going by the anime its everyone

This is the problem. You CANT use the anime for something like this. The anime makes things harder to figure out. In the anime lines like super buu being too strong for goku are kept then almost immediately tossed aside. In fact the anime has no facts most "facts" in the anime came from the manga which get contradicted by filler or are just things the anime made up that are either contradicted by the anime itself or later on in the manga.

The dub at times makes it even worse.

I can offer you this much though.

In the manga(which really should be all that matters since it is Toriyamas own work and own input on things) it is flat out stated by Goku that Super buu is too powerful for him and vegeta and if they were to fight him they would be killed. One could say he was afraid of buu turning them into candy or that because they were in his head they were weaker but if buu was weaker than either of them its likely turning them into candy would lead to the same result it did with vegito plus its flat out stated buu was too powerful which means just that. for the second piece they didn't even know their power had been effected yet and plus the scenario in question was gonna be fight Buu outside so their power drop would no longer be a factor at that point. So by that Super buu is stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Goku and Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta even if they fought together. Also fair to note Goku never actually fights any version of Super Buu in the manga in fact he is constantly avoiding combat with all of Super Buus incarnations. Now I see in quite a lot of places people saying things like "well goku said if we go out like this meaning their base forms" well thats flat out wrong. As soon as he says that he goes on about the potara and fusion dance. It's made unbearably clear he means go out un-fused and that regardless if gokus base or ssj3 he wont be beating super buu. Also considering goku can instantly transform into ssj3(as he did when buutenks charged at him) then the notion that he meant they shouldnt go out in their base forms makes no sense because they could easily transform inside buus head or immediately do so outside.

Gohan effortlessly dominated Super Buu. Gotenks once he became serious did damage similar to what Gohan had done. Though it is noted that SSJ3 Gotenks and Super Buu are more or less even. This also places ssj3 gotenks above ssj3 goku. Goku also knowing full well how fusion worked and not having the slightest clue that Gotenks would reach SSJ3 believed that ssj gotenks would be capable of beating Fat Buu. This is in fact supported a but in the manga as SSJ Gotenks never does fight Buu since his time runs out and when Gotenks does head to fight Fat Buu Piccolo only mentions gotenks being down on time. You'd think if Gotenks were weaker than Buu like he were in his base form then Piccolo would have just stated he was too weak in fact when Base Gotenks did go to fight Buu Piccolo did state that Gotenks wasnt strong enough to beat Buu. This means ssj gotenks is likely more powerful than Fat Buu so the increase ssj3 gotenks would receive would place a fair gap between ssj3 goku and himself. So at this point the scale reads Chou Gohan>>>>>SSJ3 Gotenks>=<Super Buu>>>>>SSJ3 Goku>>>>>SSJ Gotenks>=Fat Buu. And of course Vegeta is weaker than Fat Buu by quite a bit.

Now for Buu.

It's already been established by Kid Buus appearence that Super Buu>ssj3 goku. Now's where it gets tricky because when Buu is beginning to transform into kid buu it IS noted that Buu is becoming stronger and this is where the huge misconception takes place. Buff Buu(who is the buu after absorbing South Kaioshin) is in fact stronger than Super Buu. As super buu was being restrained by Dao Kaioshin while Buff Buu lacked Dao Kaioshin meaning he lacked that restraint. This is the buu whom Goku and Vegeta are scared of and for good reason if they couldn't even beat regular Super Buu how would they beat an even more powerful one? Now Kid Buu comes into the equations. In the anime Kid Buu is stated to be more powerful than the other Buus(which also include Gohan Buu how that worked I have no clue). This statement does NOT exist in the manga at all. Kaioshin merely stated that this Buu is the Buu with no remorse. And that means unlike Fat Buu who wanted to play and even made friends or Super Buu who restrained himself from destroying Earth because he was promised a challenge Kid Buu would in an instant destroy the planet. As is said he is evil incarnate. however he is not at any point stated to have gained power over his other Buus in fact as I'm about to point out it seems he lost the bulk of his power(which he did he no longer has South Kaioshin after all).

Unlike with Super Buu where Goku stated that they would only win through fusion against Kid Buu he was confident he could win alone. Now another thing to point out is in the manga Goku went directly to SSJ3 he never fought Buu as SSJ2 like the anime. During their fight the 2 were more or less even. Eventually Vegeta tells Goku to just finish buu and Goku says he was trying but never got the chance. This refers to Buus stamina and regeneration factors two things that added together with SSJ3's huge strain and energy consumption made finishing Buu downright impossible for goku. This however does not in any way mean Buu was more powerful in fact it's flat out stated that Goku is the stronger one.

By this the scale is now gohan Buu>>>>Gotenks buu>>chou gohan>>Buff Buu>>>>>ssj3 gotenks>=<Super Buu>>>ssj3 goku>>Kid Buu>>>ssj gotenks>=Fat Buu. Piccolo Buu is a non-issue and Mr. Buu like Vegeta is further down but irrelevent.

Next comes Genki Dama(Before you call me some Elitist or whatever thats what its called in the English manga). Kid Buu is able to stop an attack holding energy from everyone on Earth including Chou Gohan. This means Kid Buu>Gohan fight? WRONG. The simple explanation is Genki isnt Ki. The amount of power given to the bomb in no way reflected the power level of those who gave it. this can be brought from the rest of the manga saying Kid Buu is weaker than gohan or from Toriyamas explanation on the Genki Dama either way ssj54543553 Vegito could give energy to Genki Dama and it still might be stopped by Kid Buu. Also lets take into account that if Kid Buu were stronger than the bomb it wouldn't have killed him. Again unlike the anime where Buu was able to push the bomb in the manga Buu merely manages to halt the bomb and struggles doing that alone but also the reason why is given. that reason being since Goku was out of power he couldn't push the bomb onto Buu but once his power was restored another misconception occurs where he PUSHED the bomb. He does not fire a beam he does not add power to it he merely pushes it onto Buu which then kills Buu.

So by this

gohan-Buu>>>>Gotenks-Buu>>>>Chou Gohan>>Buff Buu>>SSJ3 gotenks>=<super buu>>>>>>ssj3 goku>>kid buu>>ssj gotenks>=fat buu

the reason fat buu is placed below kid buu is because goku stated he could have finished buu off. Feel free to decide if fat buu belongs above or below kid buu though.

so while the manga is crystal clear the anime adds in a bunch of stuff that completely in essence rewrites the saga. In the anime majin vegeta was unable to beat fat buu but later on ssj/2 vegeta feels he is strong enough to fight gohan-buu which by the way is another thing absent in the manga where vegeta agrees to fuse with goku almost immediately. For some odd reason too ssj3 goku went to fight gotenks buu so gohan could find the potara but still says super buu is too strong for him to beat.

I figured I would include gotenks even though it was about non-fused hero because it made things clearer that way. The most powerful unfused hero at this time is Gohan and the most powerful buu ever created was super buu with gohan and co. absorbed.

Of course if one DOES want to go 10 yrs into the future then its no different. In the cell saga goku said there was no way he could further his base or ssj as in they're maxed out. It's implied though not a fact that in order to ascend to another ssj level one first needs to reach the peak of the one before it(so goku achieved ssj2 and 3 as his ssj1 was completely maxed out) of course this doesnt mean that if one weakens after becoming an ascended ssj they will no longer be able to do so(which is why even though teen gohan was weaker than kid gohan he was still capable of using ssj2 despite the loss in power which yes does mean his base AND ssj were weaker too). As for the matter on hand ssj3 is practically unusable in a living body just like a high level of kaioken would kill the user so would extensive use of ssj3 so I dont see goku overall being much stronger if at all 10 years after than he was during buus attack. Unlike the anime where everyone seems to be getting stronger endlessly the manga puts a distinct cap on their power a cap that ultimately cant be broken. gohan didn't receive a zenkai after dende healed him, gokus only real method of getting stronger would likely kill him before he would see any results, vegeta is eternally bound to be a step behind goku, goten and trunks dont give a hoot.

I agree but the anime is more fun to base discussions on. I started out with about 4 comic books from the Saiyan Saga. Then I was introduced to the series on TV I mentioned this on my user page. I find the show to be more interesting than the manga. I have not read the entire manga, but I have read a majority of it. I have noticed that most of the dialog from the Japanese version of the show and a lot of the video games come from the manga version of the series. I just think that show version opens so many more directions for debate. Most of the things you have mentioned make sense to me and I agree with some of it. I too think that SS Gotenks would have been able to kill/defeat Fat Buu when he first emerged in I Kill No More. Another good point was that SS3 Gotenks was stronger than Goku. I do not know if I say that he could beat Goku, but his power level is obviously higher. He went toe-to-toe with Super Buu something that even SS3 Goku was unable to do. Although he did with Gotenks Buu, but he was not shown to be able to inflict any damage on him even with barrages of energy blast or keeping up to Buu’s speed was something that he could not do. I added Gotenks on my list as a reference to level out the un-fused characters. Now the whole matter of Goku and the others not reaching new levels of power is something that I may not agree with. He could have mastered the SS3 transformation before he left with Uub. However, this is not shown so it is up to the fans to decide. Like the reaching the peak power thing-Gotenks was said not to go SS2, but went to SS3. I think that he did have the ability to go SS2. I do not think that Goku reached a Full Power SS2, but I think that he may have mastered the form although not as well as SS. He could have considering he mentions that he hardly had practice with SS3. The way I tell if a SS form is mastered is by facial expression mostly and sometimes on personality. Against Kid Buu, he showed that clueless expression when he was pounding his chest like an ape, but with Majin Vegeta he was serious the entire time. His face never showed that expression only a slight glimpse when he reached for the Senzu and Vegeta agreed to fight with him against Buu. Anyway, Gohan Buu is the best Buu I think. Mystic Gohan is the best un-fused character, SS3 Goku falls short. See let me put this plain; the strength of characters can put them at the top of power level charts, but the setbacks and conditions of their powers (like Fusion Dance 30 min. limit, SS3 drawbacks, being dead, etc.) can make the outcome of fights a different story. Say that SS3 Goku (while living) and SS3 Gotenks went at it; Gotenks would have the upper hand in power, but both would be in serious danger. I am referring to the time limit that a living being can stay a SS3. Not to mention that SS3 is said to shorten the time limit of the Fusion Dance (similar to SS4 Gogeta) so Gotenks would go to normal like he did before he could finish Super Buu. Goku knows more about the complexity of the dance than Goten/Trunks not to mention SS3. However, that is up to debate because he said that it was not the easiest thing for him to control, but he mentions that Gotenks was moving around like he has been training for years. He could also use his Instant Transmission and other maneuvers to evade Gotenks crazy attacks. So this is one of those examples of experience vs. power. Vegetaisthebest 03:22, December 21, 2009 (UTC)